What Rights Your Teenagers Have During A Divorce (Ep. 15)

Announcer – [00:00:00] Nobody wants to end up in family court, but if you do, you want an honest, experienced family law attorney by your side to help minimize the stress, mental anguish, and legal costs that divorce and custody matters bring. Welcome to In Your Best Interest. Texas divorce attorney and entrepreneur, Justin Sisemore of the Sisemore Law Firm, entrepreneur Andrea Jones, freelance writer Mary Maloney, and guests share insight on what to expect and how to handle family law matters, the changing landscape of family law and living the entrepreneur’s life. Now onto the show. 

Announcer – Sharing custody following divorce can be challenging whether you get along with your ex or not. As children get older, they often get bolder. Many believe they should have a say in where they live and what they can and cannot do. In today’s episode of In Your Best Interest, the panel will discuss what rights teenagers have and what parents [00:01:00] can do if they disagree with their child or the other parent about the child’s goals and concerns.

Mary – Thank you for joining us for this episode of In Your Best Interest. I’m Mary Maloney, and today attorney Justin Sisemore, entrepreneur Andrea Jones and I will discuss some of the issues and challenges parents face when co-parenting teenagers, we all know there’s a lot of those. So Justin, let’s start out with talking a little bit about where the teen resides. So parents and teens are often curious about what rights teens have when it comes to making decisions about which parent they live with. So how does that work in Texas, and do teens have a say and when do they? 

Justin – So the standard of proof that you’re dealing with in a preference case, which at the age of 12 the court has, or the, the legislature has stated, the child or children have the ability to express a preference in chambers. That preference really exists in two different areas. One is possession and access, [00:02:00] and two is the parent with the right to establish the residence. So the possession and access is really a situation where it’s more suggestive and the, because obviously the court determines best interest, but when it comes to the specific parent with the right to establish the residence, that is a mandatory provision that the courts are required to interview a child or children at the age of 12. Before the age of 12 it’s a may statute, okay. And, so the importance there is not just the preference because it’s preference, preference and best interest and what I see happen a lot of times is a client comes in and says, well, my client, my child wants to reside with me. They may think that, they may not have confirmed that and the challenge is how do you actually talk to a child or when should you talk to a child about that. And what we see oftentimes is child goes to stay with dad or mom for the summer and or wants to relocate to another state to go live where mom’s new husband or dad’s new wife is residing. And so you have a child that comes in and maybe they’ve lived with [00:03:00] one parent for several years and they just are a product of fairness um, and they wanna switch and so it’s very challenging. Obviously if you’ve been in the primary care of a child for a period of time, uh, to just say and that it’s a, it’s a complicated conversation that we get into, uh, with clients specifically when kids get older. The courts tend to give more weight it seems that when a 14 or 15 year old who’s doing well in school and is pretty responsible, uh, wants to go reside with the other parent, but the other parent has been the primary caretaker and that child’s got good grades and doing well and has friends. So you, you run into this scenario of, should I let my just go? And so the preference, I always say, well, let’s look at what the total surroundings are because we need to have a hearing on best interest first. But some courts actually like to do the interview before, before the pre, before the preference is it actually stated or, or I, I’m sorry, lemme backtrack. They actually like to do the interview before the hearing on the best interest is done. And the challenge there is you just get a child coming in saying, yeah, I wanna [00:04:00] live with dad, or yeah, I wanna live with mom. Well, that’s not necessarily all the factors that the courts need to consider and so I really try with my clients to encourage pushing the hearing before the preference so that you can get out all the factors because courts are supposed to ask the kids, well, you know, why do you wanna live with mom or dad, yes? And, and that seems to be the end, but when you’re determining best interest and which is what the statute re requires, you really need to let the courts know why the court has, or why the child has succeeded in one parent’s care, um, and what the changes may uh, entail. Because, you know, you get the Disneyland dad or Disneyland mom scenario where dad moves off to Florida or mom move moves off to a sunny place and it sounds real great, but there’s not a clear plan. And so I like to get into court and ask those key questions. Well, what, what? Where’s the child gonna go to school? Have you even looked at the schools? What’s gonna happen with all the extracurricular activities? How do the, how do the educational, uh, requirements transfer over to the other school? And a lot of times, people just assume, well, my child’s [00:05:00] 12 and he wants to live with me, or she wants to live with me, so let’s just do it. And that’s not, that’s not where the analysis is. 

Mary – All right, so Justin, you’re a firm believer in the parents driving the bus in regard to decision making. Can you elaborate on that? We had touched in the past on the Alfuneza case a little bit, that’s kind of an extreme example, but if you can talk a little bit about why it’s important for the parents to drive the bus in those decision making situations.

Justin – Yeah, I, I think we’ve seen a lot of cases in the media now specifically as of recent and where when, when the child is in control or you start to put a child in a position where they’re making adult decisions, one of them being where they’re gonna live, um, and you start to empower children, you know, the natural inclination for children is to do what’s easiest for them. And what you see is parents not wanting conflict and certainly not wanting conflict with the child or children. The other thing you see is mainly, one party believes if they discipline the child, the child’s not gonna want to reside primarily with them. So they start to empower the child by, by creating scenarios where they don’t discipline and that that is just an absolute recipe for disaster. Kids absolutely need structure. They need a scenario where parents can get on the same page, and even if they can’t get on the same page, I tell my clients, look, you don’t want a teenager in your household that you have no control over, or that that teenager has shifted, uh, the hierarchical structure of the parent-child relationship. And so, even if, even if you might think on a temporary basis that you might frustrate a child or upset a child because you’re providing discipline and structure and, and you might. But the reality is we are, we are charged as parents to give them that sense of discipline, that sense of security, and it travels a long way all throughout life, as we all know. So there, there’s just a massive importance that we place on parents not over disciplining children. I, I, I really try to, especially in custody cases, get rid of all the corporal punishment stuff that just, that creates a scenario where the other side can weaponize that even if y’all have, mildly spanked a child in the past or whatever, it’s much easier to create scenarios with counselors and other people to create a disciplinary structure and try to make that consistent across the board. I’m a big proponent of asking the other party for ideas, cuz usually you won’t get a response or you’ll get a response that’s kind of antagonistic, uh, in, in, in the way that they come back to you and, and it’s just good to have that information for the court that shows you’re trying to cooperate. It shows you’re trying to establish stability, consistency, and if you don’t do that, and you think that you’re gonna win you might have a short-term gain by having the child prefer to live with you, but the long-term effects are just absolutely awful. I’ve, I very seldomly see clients that, they’re, they’re positioned and postured to win a custody case and they, they let the child run the roost that they’re ever happy both the parents and the children. So it’s just massively important [00:08:00] to, to really establish that. 

Andrea – And I can jump in here cuz we have teenagers and yes, I totally agree with, with what Justin says. Kids will go the path of least resistance and of course they will say, oh, at mom’s house or at dad’s house, I don’t have chores and I don’t, I’m not held accountable for bad grades or I don’t have to go to a tutor, whatever the thing is. But in the long run, they appreciate that. Kids need structure so we had that fight here too. Like, oh, but why do I have to do chores at your house and at the other house I don’t have to do chores. And it’s so unfair and, and, and, and, and. But if you just go your path and do what you think is right, the kids in the long run will appreciate that. And our kids look back now and say like, oh mom, I understand why you did X, Y, and Z when they’re fighting us the entire time we were doing it. You gotta do what’s right for the kid and not, not to whatever, when the kids, when the kids are over to stay with you. It makes absolutely no sense. 

Justin – Yeah, Mary, I, I just by way of example, we mediated a case two weeks ago on a repeat client and you know, [00:09:00] the, they were work, the parties were working really well and obviously they both go and get new, significant others and we’ve talked in a podcast before about the complications of the others, uh, that come. But in that specific case, the mom started undermining dad’s authority completely, um, started implanting in the kids that they need to go to other schools, uh, that their school is, is not good and without even discussing that with dad, when the court order required the agreement of the parties. And so what she thought she was doing was something that was for the benefit of the children, but really it was more for her own. And she utilized things like cell phones. She bought the kids, private go phones to just call me if your dad is scaring you or any of this stuff. And it just creates so much anxiety for kids. And what we saw in that case was, you know, that there’s four kids, right? So she thought that by kind of pecking off one or two, that she could get the whole to, to all, all agree on that decision making [00:10:00] and, and they didn’t. And, and so what ended up happening is the kids started to undermine the authority of both the mother and the father. They both spent thousands of dollars again, on a modification, and we got right back to the same place, we started to make some concessions on school. Because I, I’m a big believer of just getting rid of the key conflict points and if, if any parent thinks that, oh my gosh, if my child goes to this school or doesn’t do this, they’re gonna, they’re gonna not make it in the world, that’s just absolutely wrong. And I, I do understand that there’s better schools than others and whatnot, but the reality is the best thing you can do for your kids is be on the same page. And even if you don’t like your significant other, even if you don’t like their choices of who they’re dating or whatever the case may be, you must show your kids alignment. And it’s just like a company, if your CEO and your CFO are at war and the whole company knows about it, all of the Indians will start running around because they don’t have any chiefs. And that’s exactly what kids do.

Mary – So just as a [00:11:00] follow up on the discipline thing, um, Justin, some parents have concerns about how their ex disciplines or doesn’t discipline their, their teenagers or kids in general. At what point is it okay or is it recommended that you actually get an in attorney involved with that to manage the discipline situation?

Justin – I, I, I don’t li I don’t like the idea of parties believing that the black robe and the lawyers should dictate and navigate people’s lives. I mean, when, when clients come to me and they just don’t have, they just want someone else who they’ve never met to run the roost. Judges will tell you, uh, and they do a very good job of this in court, just saying things like, look, I don’t even know your kids, I don’t know you uh, if you want me to put together a schedule that neither one of you are gonna like, and disciplinary tactics that you guys may not even agree with, I’ll do it, but that’s not really the court’s position. They’re trying to, they’re trying to mitigate and minimize the conflict and I see parties thinking that they can weaponize because of their attorney and the courts and the, [00:12:00] the money side of it, they, they weaponize the custody case and it’s just a telltale sign that, that we’re gonna have some other experts that need to be in place. We’re gonna need psychologists, we’re gonna need counselors. And, and when you have to get all these other people in place, you should start asking yourself, why do we need all this? What are we doing here? Why can’t we just have a cup of coffee and have a conversation? And, and I know that sounds very simple from my lens but you’d be surprised how many times when we con we continue to extend the olive branch, you know, and the other side, even if they don’t reciprocate. It’s so easy to win a custody case when you do that. When you just do the do right rule, you act like Jesus, you, you, you, you really try to put yourself last. It’s just massively important for the kid’s sake for number one and number two, if you just wanna win the case, it’s the best way to do it. Just, just be clean, be nice, be normal. And when you see one party really trying to impose their will on the other one, they usually don’t, don’t fare well. 

Andrea – The kids don’t take it well either. And we had issues too, where, as we all know, don’t get along. Didn’t get along well with my [00:13:00] ex, but still, when we had disciplinary actions or disciplinary issues, I reached out or he reached out to me and then we both discussed it. We not necessarily ended out on the same page, but at least we both knew what the other one was dealing with. And then when the kid comes to the other house and makes up a story and this happened or that happened, then you have more information and you can give him a different perspective that maybe dad was right when he did this. I don’t have to agree, but at least I know what’s going on. And I think that’s very, very important, especially when they start getting older and, and it’s, it’s super, super important to, to talk to each other.

Mary – You know, another question that, that clients have been asking or prospective clients have been asking is what say a teen should have in the activities that they’re actually involved in, especially when their parents disagree. So how are those types of disputes handled in the family courts Justin? 

Justin – I, again, I am a firm believer of absolutely getting rid of as many provisions in an order as [00:14:00] you can and simplifying it as best as possible. And what I mean by that is if you are having to micromanage the kids’ activities, it is usually because one party is weaponizing an activity for your children against the other. Well, I want my kid to play football. Well, no, he, it, he wants to play basketball and, and it’s just ridiculous. And at the end of the day, if you ha, if you cannot agree on extracurricular activities and you think the court’s going to put together this laundry list and spend their time on figuring out whether your kid takes ballet or basketball, you’re just flat wrong. Usually what the courts do in that situation, is they will allow one party to exercise one activity or enroll the child in one activity and the other party to ex or, or enroll the child in another activity. And, and what you see there is again, a source of conflict because you’ve put a black robe in charge of what these activities are and you know that the parents then are gonna pick the activity that the other one doesn’t want. And so what happens is it creates, [00:15:00] the parents don’t all attend the other activities cuz they’re not supportive. The kids see it, they feel it, um, or you have the other party showing up with their significant other to the activities to kind of make it a pain because we have to go to this, uh, you have logistical issues with how they’re gonna get there. And what we see a lot in society now is, these kids are so inundated with activities that involve them traveling all over and being, you know, involved in multiple select leagues this I, I don’t wanna call it craziness cuz there’s a lot of benefit to it for some kids, but it’s really hard when you have a divided household and you get minimal time or less time with your kids to go to every single event and so you really need to be cognizant of, do unto others, do to the other parent as you want done unto you. If you enroll the child in extracurricular baseball and select baseball and you’re gone most of the spring, that in invades on the other parent’s, uh, ability to have a good possession scheduled during their time and do what they wanna do. What you see is the other parent that weaponizes that activity. And so we really try to, we really try to say, [00:16:00] look, you know, if your child has been doing select league all throughout you know, the course of y’all’s marriage, let’s continue it, but let’s not start crazy schedules and new activities just because you have this idea that you want your child to be some professional athlete. And, and, and let’s think about what the logistics look like for the other parent because they can do it back to you. And so we don’t really see the courts wanting to get too involved in extracurricular activities. But, but when you start to weaponize it and you start to, to invade on the other parent’s ability to have quality time with their child, believe me, the courts will make a decision and I, I very seldomly see the parents like the decision that’s made. 

Andrea – What’s in the best interest of the kid too, right? I mean that’s, they’re ridiculous. If you, if the kid wants to play football or basketball, let them play, play football or basketball. We always arrange that. If you want to have the kid play a certain sport, then you have to take him. You have to make sure that they can get there. Cuz I might not be able to take him there on a Wednesday. So if you want the kid, even if it’s not possession, my possession, then you take him on a Wednesday and on the weekend we’ll go to the games and if we have plans on the weekend and we have travel plans, guess what, the kid’s not [00:17:00] gonna be there. And if you have that conversation, then all of a sudden it doesn’t become that important anymore when they have to take him every day to practice and it’s entirely on the person that enrolled them in that sport. We always figured it out. 

Justin – Just Mary, just like the situation with the school, my biggest pet peeve is when a party goes to their child, before they go to the other parent and, and says, hey, I really, I want you to be in this select activity. This would be great. Wouldn’t you like this? Uh, wouldn’t you like to go to the school? Cause they have a better football program. That’s ridiculous. Right? That’s changing the hierarchical structure of the parent-child relationship. And that’s exactly what I, I usually actually, when a client comes to me and says, well, they won’t let ’em play football. Well did you talk to them? And did you talk to the child first? And if they say yes, and they, they’ve, they’ve used the child and put the child in the middle of that before they’ve talked to the other parent, it’s usually not a good client. So just be very careful, even if you have high conflict with your ex, do not put the child in the position to where the other parent feels like they’re inferior because they didn’t have any [00:18:00] conversation on the decision making. I mean, that’s, that’s just, that’s 101 common sense. So talk to the other parent first figure out what the issues are, figure out what the logistics are, and just like Andrea said it, I love that statement, hey, you know, I can’t take ’em on Wednesdays, what are your thoughts on take ’em on Wednesday, even if it’s my time? I, I wanna be supportive of, of the activities that you want the child in. It’s really hard to argue with that. And if they do, we’ll smoke ’em. 

Andrea – And then the football thing is, I think one of the big things that for us mamas is always the fear the kid wants to play football in my having twins. They’re always wanting to play football, and I was so worried about them playing football and getting hurt, but what I kind of forgot at the very beginning is their dad played football. It’s like the boys wanting to do what Daddy did, so let them do it. And again, if you want, and then, and I worked in, in professional basketball. I wanted the kids to play basketball, so that’s right, both. And at the end, guess what? The School is gonna decide what they’re actually good in. If your child is five-two and you want to play basketball, chances are not that great that he might play varsity in [00:19:00] in high school. Let them figure out what they’re actually good in. Just because you were good in a sport or then don’t, don’t like a sport, doesn’t make the kid great in that sport. If you did ballet, that doesn’t mean kids should do ballet. I mean, all those things stop imposing your own wishes of what you didn’t live out when you were younger on your child, and then force them into that. That is so ridiculous. And again, you might not see that now when the kid is five or six, but guess what? In high school, the coach is gonna make the decision who’s on the field, not you, because you want your child in that sport. Let the kids figure it out. 

Justin – Yeah, I mean, I, I think there’s this massive thing in society where we have to coddle everybody now. And kids need parents, they need structure, they need discipline they need activities, they need to be able to make decisions. And if we start again, micromanaging everything, you’re gonna do this and this is how it’s gonna be, and are you gonna be okay sweetie? You know, if, if we start to create a lot of that, that weakness, and more importantly, that inconsistency where they can just quit and they just leave. And, you know, that’s why we see so much job shifting now. So all these things that you’re doing as parents is training them for the [00:20:00] future. And I tell my kids all the time, look, you, you’re going to, you’re gonna do soccer this year. Okay, well, my dad, I don’t know. No. If you said you’re gonna do it, you’re gonna do it.And, 

Andrea – but you finished the whole season and you’re not gonna quit after two games because you were put on a bench. If you decide on the sport, then you’re gonna finish the whole season, and then after the season we can talk whether you actually have talent and want to continue this. I totally agree. 

Justin – And that goes, that goes right back to the kids running the roost. Right? So just if the, if the kids, and that’s what happens a lot of times with the extracurricular, well mom, I, I really want to do this. Okay, great, let’s do that. Well mom, I don’t wanna do this. Okay, well that’s great. Let’s do that. Let’s not do that. I mean, you’re just empowering your children to take advantage of, of situations cuz they don’t want any discipline or structure or to have to achieve something and it’d have to be challenging. And that’s just ridiculous. That’s raising sheep. And we need to, we need to be more lion raising at this point. 

Mary – Well, that’s true. It’s truly a detriment to the child if you’re not preparing them for the future, for the, the tough things ahead of them. Absolutely. So Justin parents and teenagers will always have [00:21:00] disagreements. I remember having disagreements with my mother all the time, but we get along right now, but what, what other tips do you have for parents who struggle to get on the same page with their kids? 

Justin – I think the hardest thing that, that I try to figure out is, do we need to start counseling? Do we need, because everybody has this one or two recipe item that they think works and that the reality is some kids need counselors and third parties to come in there and mitigate some of the issues. Um, and, and, and sometimes it’s just like, all right, well this is a, this is a menu item, so let’s just pick it. The, the main thing that, that I want to see is parties trying to work together and fostering and good lawyers do that. They say, Hey, I wanna see positive communication. I, if you start off on this negative foot and I see bad communications, I, I give ’em, two strikes, and third, you’re out. Right? And I know that sounds arrogant as a lawyer, but I’m not in this business to let people [00:22:00] bicker and ruin their kids’ lives because I have a good skillset of going into a courtroom and doing what I do. So I think it comes from the parents. I think that it absolutely needs to be communicated. The non-negotiables. Um, these are, these are the boundaries that we need to have. And I want to hear what your, what your boundaries are. Before I tell you mine, I just I keep reiterating, put the shoe on the other foot. Give that other parent the right to start talking. All right. And don’t talk over them. Don’t talk at them. Don’t accuse them, don’t speculate. Just listen for a second and just say, okay, look, I, I, I know that this baseball thing is important to you. You know, or I know that this rule on this cell phone is important to you, but here’s, here’s the things that, that I’m dealing with my house. How do you want to make that consistent across the line? So what would we do in a situation where if our child back talks us, in that case that I just talked about, the child basically said, F you dad. I’m not going to church. Right. And the mom gave him a cell phone and the child called the, the, the, the mom and said, Hey, dad’s told me that he’s gonna take away my cell phone and he’s gonna spank me if I don’t go to church.[00:23:00]  Well, I mean, look, I, I’m not saying that spanking is okay. We actually eliminated corporal punishment because dad’s never spanked his kids. But maybe one or two times in their life. But, sometimes when they get 12 and. 13 and they’re right in that in between age. It’s like, what do you do? You take their cell phone away. Well, mom just gave ’em a cell phone. Well, you take their money away. Well, mom gave ’em a credit card, uh, or dad gave ’em a credit card. I mean, you know, you, you gotta get consistent and, and the only way to do that is communication. And if you can’t have it, there are resources for co-parenting classes. And sometimes just forcing people into litigation and making them spend a ton of money and seeing how ridiculous it sounds in a courtroom is exactly the cure. And then they get in there and they’re like, well, you didn’t talk about the soccer game. Like, no, none of this is important. None of this really matters. What this process was designed to do, to show is to force you to, to bury yourself for a minute and communicate with the other party. And if the other party doesn’t reciprocate or they reciprocate in a negative manner, we have injunctions, we have things in place for disparagement, we have activities, we have, uh, schedules. You know, we can [00:24:00] start to use the iron fist if you will. But that is a last ditch effort. And if, if any client ever wants to come to my firm and think that we’re just gonna get all hot and bothered because they are, they’re wrong. We don’t do that. We, we train people to be better humans so that they create good humans for humanity. And I, that’s the only reason I do this job Now, I, I grew up in conflict. Andrea’s seen it, uh, in her life. We know what that does. And it’s expensive. It’s not fun. It never results in a situation where one party really feels like they’ve won. I’ve got a great friend that’s a doctor. His wife is very successful. And they’ve been fighting a custody battle for the last seven or eight years. Right. And, and I, I, I refused to take the case because I knew that the parties had so much venom towards each other that there’s really no headway you could make. And those kids are absolutely suffering as a result of it. They are suffering psychologically, emotionally. And it’s, it’s just, well, honey, you know, if we switch over to dads, you’re gonna be fine. Uh, you’re not going to need to go to the psych ward or have, take medication or God [00:25:00] forbid, uh, have suicidal ideations. But that’s how extreme it gets guys. And so when you think you’re doing the right thing, I’ve seen the worst and it is bad. And the minute that you think that your, your will is more important than your child’s emotional and psychological need and, and the need to feel loved and supported by both parents, you’re flat wrong. 

Mary – So I was gonna say, Justin, if you have any one last piece of advice for advice for parents, like any big piece of advice, what would it be? I think what you just said was just a totally a gem. Is there anything else you would add to. 

Justin – You know, I, I, I like to, I like to believe that the world is capable of, of overcoming the adversity of some humans and that humans can make changes. And there’s some humans that are not capable of making changes. Some humans believe that their their will is right and they won’t change it. And so, if you have that type of person, I think it’s very important that you continue a running timeline of what all is going on, and you continue to kind of [00:26:00] dialogue. You’re not, you’re not av, you’re not advocating evidence and you’re not information gathering every minute, but, but you need a running timeline of kind of what’s going on because it’s painting a picture of a theme, okay. And so if, if you have that adversarial parent at all costs, I, I, I really, I, I’m just gonna be honest, I don’t like those cases because it’s very hard to fix people and, and the clients even, even when you do everything, you’re in your power and you get the best result possible. They’re never content with it. And I think that’s so important, Mary, for people to hear. Like, I, I make a ton of money off doing this job because people fight, and I hate people fighting. I hate when people, I don’t like divorce. I don’t like high conflict. I don’t like kids running amuck. And so if, if that is you, you need to change your activity structure. You need to change how you’re addressing your life, your health, your mental health. Start with you first because you may have some issues and [00:27:00] even if it is the other parent’s overbearing and you can’t figure out ways to navigate and ways to communicate, get yourself right. And that is the only way that we can assure that we can provide the evidence to win the case. Number one. And number two, you might find it just works. Um, you know, 90% of the cases settled mediation even in high conflict. So think about that. You people get real tired of paying lawyers. They get real tired of results. They get real tired of the time, real tired of the stress and they see their kids suffering and sometimes that’s what it takes. So don’t be that person. Just start with you and communicate with the other parent. And I think what you’re gonna find is it will soften the blow. It may not fix it all, but it’ll soften it. And you have to have the mindset that people can change. You just have to have that mindset. 

Mary – So I think that’s a great place to wrap up today.So if you’d like to get in touch with the Sisemore Law Firm, you can call 817-336-4444 or visit lawyerdfw.com. We also invite you to follow the podcast and [00:28:00] share it with friends who might find it helpful. Thanks again for listening and have a great day. 

Announcer – Thank you for listening to In Your Best Interest with Texas Divorce Attorney and entrepreneur, Justin Sisemore. The content presented here is provided for information only and should not be construed as legal, tax, or financial advice. Click the follow button to be notified when new episodes become available.