Transforming High Conflict Divorce into Peaceful Parenting (Ep. 28)

Announcer 1 – [00:00:00] Nobody wants to end up in family court, but if you do, you want an honest, experienced family law attorney by your side to help minimize the stress, mental anguish, and legal costs that divorce and custody matters. Bring Welcome to In Your Best Interest. Texas divorce attorney and entrepreneur, Justin Sisemore of the Sisemore Law Firm entrepreneur, Andrea Jones, freelance writer Mary Maloney, and guests Share insight on what to expect and how to handle family law matters, the changing landscape of family law and living the entrepreneur’s life now onto the show.

Announcer 2 – [00:00:40] While most divorces are stressful for the parties involved, stress escalates when conflict arises between the spouses. In today’s episode of In Your Best Interest, the panel will tackle the topic of high conflict divorce, explaining what high conflict divorce means, and sharing insight on best steps to take to manage [00:01:00] conflict and keep stress at bay during divorce.

Mary – [00:01:02] I. Thanks for joining us for this installment of In Your Best Interest. I’m Mary Maloney, and today, attorney Justin Sisemore, entrepreneur Andrea Jones and I will discuss the ins and outs of High Conflict divorce. So Justin, uh, we were discussing this topic the other day, um, and it was, it’s a great topic to, to tackle, so, um.[00:01:24] One of the things we talked about is that there are many different types of conflict that do come up in divorce, so can you kind of break down what high conflict means in relation to divorce and custody and the different types of conflict you see in your practice? 

Justin –  Sure. I think the, the, the term conflict obviously when somebody’s going through a divorce, they, there’s gonna be conflict.[00:01:45] The question is what is the conflict? Where does it come from? How do you deal with it? Who is the person that needs to deal with certain types of conflicts? When did they need to deal with it? And exactly why do they need. Deal with or not deal with the conflict. [00:02:00] So I try to break it down the other day in our blog about the idea of internal conflict, um, that exists between the client.[00:02:08] Usually it, it involves emotional issues. Uh, I had a client yesterday. Literally right before the eclipse. And he calls and he’s just frantic and he’s like, this is an emergency. And I I, I, my wife won’t turn off her phone. I can’t get the number ported over. What do I do? You know, there, there’s things where you kinda look at that is, is this really an emergency?[00:02:29] And so what we try to do is line out in the beginning. Kind of the internal problems or issues that a client’s gonna face. You know, people term it conflict because I think it’s a search term. But anytime you have somebody that has a fundamental disagreement about a property value, a visitation schedule you know, those are, those are kind of the external forces, but the internal forces of conflict arise out of how do you deal with issues.[00:02:54] How do you get that information disseminated onto a structured, uh, [00:03:00] timeline and really, you know, what do you do with that when you understand these are kind of the red flags or the conflict points? So. When I look at the internal conflict first, I try to tell the client, um, and our team tries to guide the client through what they can experience as pitfalls.[00:03:15] So when you know that internally, there’s certain times of the week, there’s certain days that are more stressful, there are, there are issues that you’ve. Really kind of, I call the hot button issues. We try to mitigate those and minimize the internal, uh, components. And we, we always say the do right rule, uh, you know, do unto others as you’d have done unto you.[00:03:34] And that sounds very simple. But in order to mitigate and minimize the internal conflict, to keep the cost lower and to keep the animosity down in the divorce case, it’s really important to start by looking within. So that’s one form. The second, uh, form of conflict exists between the two parties. So, you know, you first look in internally, then you look at the external forces and try to minimize or mitigate those.[00:03:57] Where do we do the exchanges? You know, how [00:04:00] do we get the information? Over to the other side. If you’re not very organized, how do, do you have somebody in play that can be a buffer between you, the attorney to basically get some information that seems very, you know, simple when you’re not going through the stresses of a divorce, uh, or a custody case, but that it actually evolves because you know when you’ve got the blinders of the emotion going on, you’ve got your kids, you’re trying to learn, uh, how to raise and.[00:04:24] In different households, you’ve got the stresses of now a dual income household being separated potentially, and now you’ve got the expenses and the newness of where you’re living. Really trying to identify. Alright, these are gonna be the habits. Uh, these are gonna be where we do the exchanges.[00:04:40] These are gonna be how I get the information. These, these different, uh, aspects of how you deal with that. From the external force of the emotion of the other side. And then, and then the third prong is really how we deal with opposing counsel. Whether we actually engage with opposing counsel when they are not, um, necessarily forthcoming with information, [00:05:00] um, when they are telling their client things potentially that really disrupt the ability to make a deal.[00:05:06] And so when we talk about conflict in a holistic term, I really like to think about. These are, these are gonna be the stress points or these, these can be the, the different differentiating factors when it comes to valuation. And let’s just take ’em piece by piece, not look at this like, I clearly have conflict with my spouse, or else I wouldn’t be getting a divorce, or I wouldn’t be going through a custody case.[00:05:27] Let’s look at them as issues or problems to solve one by one, day by day. And I think that cuts down. On the stress to a degree. And then when you organize the thoughts into a chronological date based order and a timeline and you’re updating the timeline, unless it’s a very significant event, you don’t need to tackle every problem every day as it comes before you.[00:05:49] And I think, you know, it’s very easy as lawyers when you bill by the hour, uh, to think, well, you know, look, if a client calls and says they can’t get the cell phone ported over, it is an emergency for the client [00:06:00] that day and we have to solve it. And what I tried to do yesterday, for example, is just say, Hey listen.[00:06:05] I know this is very important to you because it’s the first thing on your plate, but let’s look at the three prongs. The internal conflict is because you’re getting a letter from opposing counsel saying you didn’t import the the number over. Then you freak out about it ’cause you’re having to pay me and opposing counsel potentially to.[00:06:21] Have a conversation that two normal people in a different situation would easily be able to resolve. And, you know, and then the external forces, when the lawyer sends over the, the nasty gram, I, I try to tell clients, look, lawyers are gonna be keyboard. There’s some lawyers that are just be keyboard lawyers.[00:06:37] There’s some, you know, people that are gonna send you emails that gonna send you an orbit. And my clients, you know, sometimes will take the position, well, let’s just block the spouse. And I’m like, no, let’s, if someone’s being unreasonable, we can take that unreasonableness, which creates the conflict and use that as a, as a tool, um, or evidentiary piece in a courtroom.[00:06:57] So I, I try to take the, the [00:07:00] term conflict and not make it just like, oh gosh, we’re, we’re at war with each other and really compartmentalize the. Pieces of the mosaic, which is the whole, the once it all comes together in mediation or trial, you see all the letters that were sent, all the communications, the things that you thought were big conflict points.[00:07:16] When someone gets into court and they are making these like the hot button issues and we’re just like, this is ridiculous. Like, pick up the phone and call at and t. That’s exactly the letter we sent back. We just said, Hey, you know, it’s a business. The number gets ported from the business. Sorry, here’s, here’s another solution.[00:07:31] And you try to, you try to find other. Avenues to put the ball in the other side’s court, if you will. And what you’ll find is once that all comes together in, in a story, in a trial, in a theme, you start to see the people that are very, uh, abrasive throughout the process. And as long as you’re not that person, I, I, I don’t think that you would categorize that as, as conflict in your day-to-day life.[00:07:54] So we try to make that a, a, a pretty clear point. 

Mary – So I know too, Justin, your firm believes that it’s [00:08:00] very important to in the initial consultation to kind of identify those areas of conflict. So what, what are you looking for? You kind of touched on it in the, in the previous segment there, but, um, what are you looking for?[00:08:10] Why is that so important? Anything else to add on that? 

Justin – I think as far as the, the consult itself, um, you know, I’ve really struggled with the idea when somebody pays for a consult and you know that you’re not the right fit, how do you, how do you break the news to somebody? And if we have somebody that, for example.[00:08:27] Is very, very, uh, abrasive on the phone to the staff. They’re very, you can tell that they just, everything is an emergency and they want to tell you how, how terrible every situation is. If we are in a situation where we have a ton of clients in a particular time of year, for example, after, you know, the holidays for example I try to tell people, Hey, listen.[00:08:50] We want to help you, but you’ve got to get to where you can be helped in the first place. The client yesterday, I kind of knew that it was gonna be a high conflict divorce, and [00:09:00] again, I just said, don’t go to the high conflict divorce situation, but that’s what we do. And we conclude and speculate that it’s gonna always be that way.[00:09:07] I will tell you that, um, I’ve had many clients that call frantic because, that’s what you do when you’re, you, you’re in an initial consult at times. And I’ve been wrong about. How much conflict there will be. I’ve also had the client that’s been through a lawyer or two and they, they’ve kind of learned the game a little bit and they call with a very soft tone and that is a underlying mask of something that is gonna be much.[00:09:33] Higher conflict down the road because maybe they’ve spent a bunch of money on lawyers and they’ve been told by lawyers and or experts and or the court that they’re the problem. And that’s very hard to get people outta their own way, uh, when they’ve been kind of midstream of the process. So, um, one thing we do at the initial consult phase is really talk through, Hey, these are the pitfalls we’ve seen from other clients.[00:09:54] If this happens to you, if you know, if you can’t be. Cooperative with staff. If you can’t get [00:10:00] information over, if you’re the type that gets really hot and bothered over little issues, we’re not gonna dance well with each other. Okay. And that doesn’t mean you’re a terrible person, it just means, you know, we are very particular on trying to get people to evolve through the process.[00:10:13] That’s why I still do this job. And if I don’t think we can make progress or somebody is very, uh, out to get the other side of vindictive in that first consult. What you’ll find I think is pretty consistent is the retainers end up getting higher. Well, Justin, why are you charging some more money if they’re gonna be, uh, if they just need more help?[00:10:32] Well, the answer is they can’t get through stages or phases of the process without. The need for, you know, hundreds of emails and hundreds of phone calls. And even though we, we try to tell the client, don’t do that because we’re not getting you anywhere. And that’s where you end up spending a bunch of money, telling us things that really don’t impact the case that much.[00:10:52] If we can’t make some progress and the client is stepping on me in the consult and telling me how it’s gonna be and or their new spouse gets on the phone, [00:11:00] it’s really pretty telling to the lawyer that, Hey, that’s. That’s probably not a good fit. So if you’re getting really high consult fee, you know, really high retainer quotes, 25, $30,000 and you don’t have a big estate, you might need to do some internal assessment on getting the emotions in check and getting the idea of how you get the information to the lawyer down before you start the process.[00:11:22] Because if you get going and it starts that way and there are additional conversations that you have and you just keep doing it, you can’t necessarily be frustrated about. A high charge, and the reason you can’t is because lawyers have a duty to call you back within a reasonable time. We have a 24 hour policy.[00:11:39] We try to make it faster than that, but we have a, we have a legal duty and an obligation to the client to be responsive.. And, you know, in today’s world with negative reviews on Google ’cause you didn’t like the fluffiness of the pillow and, you know, maybe perhaps you, you, you go the grievance route because you were charged and you don’t wanna pay your bill.[00:11:57] Um, you know, we have some of those bad apples [00:12:00] that, that, that slip through the cracks. And you know, some things are warranted and you change your business model over the years, uh, and evolve through that. And some things just aren’t. And I think it’s really important that if you are the type of person that.[00:12:12] Is the eternal victim and everyone around you is wrong. The expert’s wrong. The judge is wrong, the system is wrong. Your lawyer’s not doing their job. Your spouse is this. I mean, this guy yesterday, legitimately, his best friend now is out to get him at t is out to get him. And it’s like, man, you gotta stop this victimization.[00:12:29] And I tried in the beginning of that consult to get him to go to a counselor. He did. He waited two or three months. And I said, what’d you learn from the counselor? And they, he said, well, you know, they said, I, I’m just a victim. And, and, and, and you know, you, you want to be like, ah, I told you so. Right. That would be somebody that’s not a servant.[00:12:46] I, I, I told you I knew this. I told you I’m right. There’s no need for me to be right. I. It doesn’t do any good to conclude that, that you are a victim and that everyone’s wrong. Because when we get through this process and we’re going through the [00:13:00] stages, if you continue that path, you will not succeed. You will send some bad emails, you’ll send some bad texts, you’ll blow up your lawyer, you’ll blow up the judge.[00:13:07] You’ll eventually say something on the stand despite how much work we do together in Cross-examination. So it’s very important at that initial outset for the client to take that advice and really listen. And if you can’t get on that page. It may not be time to push the gas pedal. 

Mary – I love that. I love bringing in those real life examples.[00:13:26] That’s always awesome. So this, this next question really is for both of you, Justin and Andrea. And Andrea as someone who has been a client of Justin’s. Um, we were recently talking about how it’s important for the attorney to set expectations and explain how the strategy and timeline will kind of play out during divorce.[00:13:45] And you kind of touched on the timeline earlier there, Justin. Can you both share your perspectives on that?

Andrea –  I think from a client perspective, it’s vitally important that you listen when you talk to your attorney, and then that the attorney on the other hand explains the [00:14:00] process and how I should act as a client.[00:14:03] I mean, if you never been through divorce or modification or any of those things, you have no idea. And if the attorney comes from, well, I know everything and you just need to follow me, and I don’t explain anything, you feel lost. I mean, divorce is a process no matter how strong you are as a person. It feels as if the rug is pulled underneath your feet.[00:14:21] And basic things that you normally handled yourself before become major tasks and everything is coming at you at the same time. So I think it’s vitally important that the lawyer explains what will happen and how is, how the soup is made, and then at the same time explains to you what is expected from you and why certain behaviors are not good.[00:14:41] Why certain behaviors are good. Just I mean, like you basically talking to a toddler and have to lay it down because mentally you are not in the right space. And, and I think it’s important also that you follow up as an attorney afterwards and say it again. ’cause if I talk to Justin for half an hour and he’s thrown everything at me even if I take notes, I’m not gonna remember everything [00:15:00] he said and how it’s done because I’m not an attorney.[00:15:02] So it’s vitally important, I think, afterwards to break it then down in little steps and say, okay, this is the first phase we focus on X and then we go to the next step. And we focus on that and really, really talk to the client. There has to be some compassion understanding for the mental state. The person is in, especially when there’s kids involved.[00:15:19] And as a mother, you feel like you’re losing your kids when the other side wants custody. Again, there’s a very emotional state, and as an attorney, I think the attorney should pay attention to that. And I think Justin and his team does that. But, and you on the other hand, as a client, have to remember that you are not in the right state of mind.[00:15:37] You are stressed, you are emotional, and, and don’t bring that to the table. Try to be as factual, as bullet points as you can. 

Justin – Yeah. And Mary, on that point, I, I’ve got a, someone who’s very close to us who we’re representing right now. And, you know, one of the things that, that I try to remember, um, in addition to the things that I’m I or my [00:16:00] shortcomings, I try to put people in the team that surround me and on our staff that surround me that have different character characteristics.[00:16:07] You know, I can be very. Forceful in a conversation and, and, and seem to skip over some of the things that I assume the client knows. So when I, when I add an associate attorney, uh, to work alongside of me or a paralegal to help talk through some of those details, It’s important to remember that they’re all a part of the strategy and the process.[00:16:28] And I think it’s very, very clear to clients when they, when they see how we’re saving them money by having a paralegal do something that’s a paralegal job. Or an associate attorney, uh, that comes in and. And really has a different mindset. I’ve got several female attorneys that, uh, have very, very good attention to detail.[00:16:48] When a client’s really struggling emotionally, they’re very good about listening to that. And I, I have a tendency because of my familial background, biological makeup, all the external forces to wanna just jump to [00:17:00] the, you need to be strong. This is ridiculous. This is not a big deal. Those are the conclusions that I tell clients not to do.[00:17:06] The piece that Andrea touched on, and we actually have monthly meetings on this and it, I had to write out in detailed order bullet points. This, this very issue when Andrea says, explain how the soup is made. I don’t like to just explain how the soup is made. Anymore. I used to think that was enough.[00:17:23] I think you have to explain how the soup is made. Explain that. You know, you’re gonna have the, this spoon and it’s gonna be hot. And as the attorney and the the support staff, you, you cool it down for ’em. You feed it to ’em, you wipe their, their, their mouth with a napkin. You take it every step and, and to parallel that to a hearing, for example, when, when you go to court.[00:17:44] You should have the direct and cross examination, at least feel what that feels like from the attorney. It should be very close in proximity to the hearing. When you get to the hearing and, and before then you explain to the client, Hey, this is what’s gonna happen. We’re gonna have about an hour over there when you get [00:18:00] there.[00:18:00] It’s gonna be stressful. You’re gonna feel like you don’t know where I am you know, when I’m walking back and forth to the court. Just, just some of the, just general logistics of, of, of the process. And then when you have, after you have the hearing, we do a decompression meeting usually right thereafter to explain, okay, what this is when the order’s gonna come, the other side may get the order first.[00:18:21] If they do, it doesn’t mean that they’re one, have one leg up on you. And these are things we as lawyers know. Right. But stuff that simple when you receive, you know, a message from the other side saying, ha ha, you didn’t get your extra Tuesday, and, and they’re the first person to give you that information.[00:18:38] Sometimes they’re the first person to get the actual order sent to them. And granted, there’s a, a time or two where we’re in court and it may take an hour later or a couple hours later before as we email that the client may not even check their email and not know that we’ve sent it. So it’s explaining to them.[00:18:55] At the end, that’s where you wipe the napkin and ask them how the service was. And that’s [00:19:00] the decompression piece. And I take it a step further. When we get back to the office, we do a bullet point list of just kind of the summary of what the the court said or did in the rendition. The rendition is one page long in a temporary orders hearing and an associate judge’s report and it doesn’t tell you all the details.[00:19:16] Well, then all of a sudden the attorney sends you a. 30 page order that has everything under the sun. You’re like, well, I don’t even know what this means. We didn’t talk about this. And it feels like the tail is wagging the dog and you’re always playing catch up. The reality is we as attorneys and support staff have to do a better job of not assuming what the client knows.[00:19:35] Um, it cuts down on the calls, it cuts down on the costs, uh, by that explanation. But as Andrea said, I have said things to clients. In so many different ways. We’ve given them so many different aspects where they have follow up upon, follow up you know, with podcast blogs, everything we can do to try to get the information to them where they’re not having to call the office for these questions all the time, but.[00:19:58] Let’s be clear. When you’re [00:20:00] stressed out and you just wanna pick up the phone and talk to somebody, you need to be able to do that, and they need to be responsive to you and listen to you and take the time and really know your case. And you just can’t do that in these onezie twozie shops or where you have the.[00:20:13] The one lawyer on the sign and that person thinks that, you know, they’re God’s gift to the legal profession, so they’re gonna do all the things ’cause they’re logistically, you just can’t, these things fly at you so fast, there’s no way to keep up. And that creates more conflict. Going back to that in the beginning.

Mary – [00:20:30] So the other thing I wanted to touch on here is, is the expectations too, because, um, when we were talking, um, a week or so ago ago about this, we talked about the fact that some people just, they wanna get everything done right away in that first hearing. And then that, that is part of the process that, that attorneys have to explain to their clients in regard to the fact that this is what, this is gonna happen now.[00:20:54] And basically be patient, you know, we will get there. Um, can you guys talk a little bit more about that? [00:21:00] 

Justin – Yeah. And, and that’s, you know, when we had Covid during Covid, we had the mandatory kind of mutual injunctions and some counties have those. And, and that’s really kind of the race to the courthouse piece.[00:21:12] It adds a lot of stress on the attorney. I know this is not poor attorney, right? You’re, you we’re supposed to be the strong one, your backbone, but think about if you’re an associate and, and, and. You’ve got a law firm to run and all these things. You’ve got these hearings that fly, fly at you in every three or four days, right?[00:21:29] And you’re getting ready for really a piece that’s going to take up probably six to eight months of a client’s life. And you know, you got about 30 minutes aside to put that forward. You have to get all of the information assimilated so you can really dive into the important theme of that temporary orders hearing.[00:21:49] And you don’t really have much time to do that. You haven’t conducted discovery, you know, in civil litigation you’ve got months and months and months to prepare for this. So during covid we had, you know, the, the [00:22:00] mandatory injunctions. Now, um, going back to, you know, the way it was before, which is File the hearing, get the TRO set.[00:22:06] You’ve got 14 days before that TRO expires. So if you’ve got a business or somebody that you know is not giving you the child or whatever the case may be, you don’t have very much time to prepare. And it’s very, very action packed in the beginning. It’s very front loaded, and that’s why the retainers are higher in the beginning to get that information.[00:22:25] And the client’s expectation is, I want it over with, but I want to get the result. Well, you, in order to get it over with, you have to kind of go through the process. And in doing that, you’re gathering the documents, you’re going through the phone calls, the emails, the charges, the hearings, you’re taking off work.[00:22:42] You know, it, it does take time. It’s, it’s not meant to be easy. You know, and a lot of times the courts want parties to work this out, right? I have, I have a client right now. We literally were in court on Thursday because each party wanted the child to go to one different private school. And you know, that sounds like such an easy, like, let’s parents, let’s [00:23:00] get over this.[00:23:00] Come on man. I mean, what’s gonna happen if this child goes to this private school or this private school? Well, when you’ve got a new wife and one the new wife has kids go to the new private school and the other wife. Has a different belief system. Uh, it brings in all of these forces. So the result may seem simple, but how we get there and understanding you know, in, in the psyche of the individuals and really getting those details down to theme so that we can get up there with a very clear cut path, which was, Hey, listen.[00:23:29] We’ll pay for the private school in totality. My client’s like, well, I don’t wanna pay for all of it. I want her to pay for half of it. Well, yeah, if you’re going and making that argument, you know, and the other side saying, I’ll split it, but I don’t want the kids to go to this school and you’re the one saying, Hey, I’ll pay for the whole school.[00:23:43] That’s pretty logical. It’s not, that’s not rocket science. It’s just pretty logical approach. And the judge is sitting there with a whole different, set of rules. The judge is sitting there going, Hey, listen, if y’all can’t see eye to eye on the school. I don’t care where your kid goes to school, it’s gonna go to the school, whoever has the primary or exclusive right to establish the [00:24:00] residence in that jurisdiction.[00:24:01] Um, or in that lo location. And if you can’t figure it out, the child’s gonna go to that public school. And there’s plenty of kids that go to that public school that do wonderful. So they’re not sitting there, breaking down in, in. To this, to the level of severity that you might be thinking they do as a judge because they’re dealing with very, very serious issues on a routine basis.[00:24:22] And they may have 18 of you coming in and 16 of you may be dealing with issues that are far more severe than whether your child goes to Country Day or Trinity Valley. 

Andrea – And so, but that, I think that’s, that’s what you have to explain as an attorney. ’cause for me as a mother in that situation, or as a dad, doesn’t matter, this is like the biggest thing on my plate, but I think is if the attorney explains.[00:24:42] To what you just said. What is really, really important and which, which things do we really need to discuss? And what is like a, this is must have, and this is wanna have, and this is like my wishlist, the attorney has to set the expectation because again, my world is, is my world are my kids [00:25:00] and my family and everything else.[00:25:01] So I want that to be done my way. So the expectation from the attorney has to be set properly. What is the judge hearing? ’cause I’ve never heard that. I’ve, if I’ve never been in a courthouse. I think the turns the, the judge is gonna listen to everything I have to say. That’s not the case. Like you said earlier, if you explain to the client that you might have 20 minutes, you might have half an hour in front of the judge, what are the top three things we need to discuss and not go to super detail?[00:25:26] ’cause the judge is not gonna listen or the judge has heard this, whatever infidelity 50,000 times. They don’t care about that. They care about the kids. That expectation, I think has to be set from the attorney before you even go into those hearings. And then I as a client have a better understanding why you as an attorney potentially don’t even bring up certain things.[00:25:45] ’cause otherwise, I’m gonna be mad at you for not bringing this up. If I don’t understand what the, the strategy and everything is behind, I think that’s, that’s missing. But hearing friends, there’s so many people that miss, that they’re going to hearing are not prepared. They don’t know that there might be, understand, there is no [00:26:00] practice.[00:26:00] What do I say? Understand what is my attorney asking me? Why are you asking me those questions? Those preparations and expectations need to be set. And also expectations that I have as a client to you. How fast are you gonna respond to an email? How fast are you gonna call me back if I have something?[00:26:16] ’cause I’m not your only case, like you said earlier, 24 hours. So if I have something urgent, I send you an email, I should, I should have the guarantee that within 24 hours I hear back. And if I don’t hear back, then I have a problem. But I think there’s a lot of stuff that’s missed nowadays from attorneys in communi in communication with the clients.

Justin – [00:26:34] Yeah. And Mary, one thing that we really need to pull out of what Andrea just said, I love, I love the concept of, of categorizing and ranking the this is what I must have, this is what I need to have, and this is what I want to have, um, happen in my case. Because, you know, it’s not that you just table the I wants, like we, we try to get all of it right.[00:26:56] That’s our job. But if, if we’re, if we’re [00:27:00] ranking the order or the pecking order of those things, you’re gonna be giving up something. In the process of splitting time with your children and splitting the costs and splitting, uh, the valuation of your estate, you’re gonna be giving up something. And it always feels like a loss, and it feels like a big loss, especially through mediation.[00:27:17] I can’t tell you how many times, you know, clients go into mediation versus a trial. And the trial result was like. A little bit better, not a lot better. And I tried to steer that, or my team tries to steer that information so the client doesn’t go to, you know, a trial and spend 20 or 30 more thousand dollars.[00:27:32] And, you know, we like money just like the next guy, uh, or girl. But at the end of the day, if it, if it’s not gonna really benefit somebody. Why do it? But the reality is sometimes that piece is just the therapeutic release point. And I can’t tell you how many times we’ve gone to trial and they’ve, they’re like, man, I finally feel heard.[00:27:51] Um, and I think from Andrea, what she just said, if you know that that’s gonna be the path that you’re going down and you know that it’s gonna be a year, a year and a half [00:28:00] before you’re set in court, you’ve got to be able to compartmentalize the pieces of the case and take some time. To soak up where you are, to not think you have to get to the next step before it develops.[00:28:11] That’s why I break it down into the four buckets. That’s why we tell the clients up front the consultation. This is where this piece of the retainer should get you. And, and we have follow up calls in between there, obviously. But if you, but if you can make it where, to where in your mind. Okay.[00:28:27] I can now release at least for a couple months. I know nothing is gonna happen. Uh, until we get closer to this mediation. The lawyer’s gonna move on to other cases. The client’s figuring out their life. They’re figuring out whether they’re gonna, they’re gonna have this new job that’s paying this money, what the schedules are gonna look like, and, and so if you prioritize, okay.[00:28:44] The most important piece here is making sure your kids are in a place where two parties are at least able to cooperate. They’re able to function. Like you’re not setting a schedule where you’ve got an 80 hour work week and you want primary or 50 50 when you can’t do the [00:29:00] pickup and drop off. Um, you start to think about this in a simplistic logistic fashion, and you compartmentalize that into the timepiece of where.[00:29:07] You are in the case. And when you do that you know, I keep, I can keep getting the client back there. I’m like, Hey, listen, I know you want this over with yesterday, right? But we’re still at step one. And so step one of this process is gonna last about three months or so, just like we talked about in the initial consult.[00:29:23] It’s amazing how many times I see clients’ light bulb go off in the initial consult, and then they get in the midst of litigation and they forget about it. So I think it’s important to go back to the basics and just say, all right. Let’s push reset. And especially when you’re, they’re like, well, I talked to Justin.[00:29:38] He said this, I get, I get told things I say all the time that I absolutely do not say. And so, you know, if you’re feeling like there’s this moment where you just need a point of clarity, pick up the phone and say, all right, well, I. If the support staff, you know, or the team that is put together, you’re not getting that same clear communication.[00:29:55] And maybe they’re saying it this exact same way, it’s just coming out differently to you and [00:30:00] it’s not registering. Pick up the phone and say, let’s have a, a meeting amongst the masses to get back to overall strategy. And I think that’s a very, very good time to do that. Um, I think it cuts down a lot of the stress, which cuts down on the calls, the stress in the emails.[00:30:13] It makes the lawyer feel better because their client is more satisfied with. The cooperation, the overall strategy. And then they, you know, when your lawyer is enthusiastic about how you are evolving and the progress they’re making, you know, and even if you don’t get your extra Tuesday or that extra $4,000 for something, at the end of the day when you, when you’ve, when you’re fundamentally able to release and say, okay, this person’s not controlling me anymore.[00:30:37] They don’t have this power over me. I, I love that transition in a client. I think it makes ’em better parents. It makes ’em better people in society. Uh, it makes ’em a better witness. And, you know, I, I kind of like to win and, and if we have somebody that’s really rowing in that direction, we can make some real progress and it’s very fulfilling career at that point.

Mary – [00:30:56] I. So to wrap up this conversation about [00:31:00] conflict can we talk a little bit, just touch on the, the co-parenting aspect of this. Do you have any tips you can share, Justin, for, for people that are dealing with conflict and trying to find a good way to, to share custody and co-parent? 

Justin – So when I, when I used to be an amicus, an amicus attorney is, is an attorney that the courts would bring in because two parties are going at each other’s throats.[00:31:22] And they can’t really get resolution. There’s not always a clear path to resolution. I used to bring people in the office and I was probably more blunt than boat than most. I’d put people that had high conflict in the same room. I mean, you could hear ’em screaming across the building at each other. You know, I I, I used to do the initial meeting with the child present because I’d meet with a child right afterwards.[00:31:39] And then I realized our walls aren’t thick enough sometimes. But, but one of the main things that I. Try to I impose on clients is that I know we’re gonna go in and say that we’re the greatest thing since sliced bread, and I know that your initial thought is it’s their fault. And so what I try to do is lead out with what’s the worst thing they’re gonna [00:32:00] say about you.[00:32:00] I. Right, not, not that it’s true, not that we’re adopting that, but I like to approach the case from the other side of the opposition’s argument because what you will see is I get front loaded with a bunch of information that the opposing side’s gonna say. Uh, so I really get to gauge the theme of the opposing party’s case.[00:32:18] And one thing that I’m known for is cross-examination. So. In that process of cross-examination, I get clients that go, man, you know, that was terrible. Do you really think that about me? I was like, no, but you need to understand that there’s two suits in the room for a reason and you know, to minimize the conflict, if you really lead out like, like I did with the Amicus.[00:32:38] Situation where I, you know, have them write down 10 things that are kind of the, the problems or their issues they’re having with the other side. And then over time we try to shorten those down. Like, look, we got to five, that’s progress, right? May not feel like progress to you, but that’s huge progress. If you cut out 50% of conflict, well then all of a sudden it gets down to three and two, and then you get through it, uh, just like you do with everything else.[00:32:59] The stress [00:33:00] of a job, the stress of life, uh, you know, a diet, whatever the case may be. You get through it over time and if you keep that, you know, glass half full, one foot in front of the other 24 hour increments and you’re seeing the progress and you recognize that as progress, I think that’s one thing that we don’t do enough of now in society is like we wanna skip over all the details and get to the conclusion and never smell the roses in the process.[00:33:24] And when you do that, you just jump to the next thing. It’s very stressful. Across the board. It’s stressful for the lawyers as a, as a career. Um, you know, it, it’s stressful for you as the client if you’re just jumping to the next negative and you don’t smell the positive and you don’t take some time to, to really let that mature.[00:33:42] If you slow down a little bit and pay attention to the details, and like Andrea, you listen to the ingredients of the soup, how the soup is made, go back to your, go back to the basics. Look at the overall strategy of the case, figure out where you are, and then you go, okay, well listen. Justin told me the initial consult, you know, we’re gonna get through the temporary orders, [00:34:00] those are gonna rock along for four to six months.[00:34:01] That’s exactly where we are. And guess what the costs are gonna be from here to here based on conflict. I’ve mitigated the emails and costs. Like he told me I put that stuff in the timeline. We didn’t need to use it. And then I got the inventory together. I got all the supporting docs the way they said they needed them, and you know.[00:34:16] And now we’re here and we’ve got a mediation set up. That’s where, that’s like businesses. I listen to, you know, these podcasts about these business founders all the time and they, you know, they’re solving major world problems. And the idea of scalability is very hard for most people because they get into the weeds and they go right into the weeds.[00:34:34] And especially in divorce or child custody case. It’s a very easy place to go. So my job is to basically get you back to that 30,000 foot view. Don’t compartmentalize and overanalyze every single issue. Get above the weeds, breathe, and then you can start to make progress as a human being, which makes you a better parent.

Mary – [00:34:52] So Andrea, I know you probably have something to to that because you’ve been through it with your kids. 

Andrea – So I think everything that [00:35:00] Justin just said, and on top of that, you just need to be careful. You don’t get pulled in into the bs, I think keep your side of the street clean. Be the best father or best mother you can be, and then let everything play out.[00:35:11] And that’s that. That did not work for me at the beginning. I, if I could. Turn time back. That’s, I should have been kept my cool more at the beginning, but I was like trying to be mom and trying to protect my kids. But when it, when it, when it comes to the kids, what is in the best interest of the kids? The kids are not gonna die if they eat McDonald’s on the other side.[00:35:28] We talked about that many times. Is that really that important? And really be a, be a great parent and do what you can do to be, to, to be exactly that and don’t get pulled into the conflict and the tidiness and, and, and pettiness of, of the other side potentially. You’re gonna be fine. Kids are smart kids.[00:35:44] Figure this out. Mine are now the youngest are 19 now. We have an amazing relationship and all the stuff that was whatever, 10, 15, 20 years ago, it doesn’t matter. It really doesn’t matter. It’s hard to see while you’re in it. But when you come out on the other side, hopefully stronger, [00:36:00] you’ll realize it was, it wasn’t even that important focus on the major things.[00:36:03] The major, the kids shouldn’t get hurt. They should, the kids should not be involved in all the stuff. They shouldn’t hear all that stuff. They should be between the parents and let the kid, the kids only have one childhood. They can’t go back and have a second one. So what can you do to give those kids an amazing childhood, even though you might be going through some conflict?

Justin – [00:36:20] Yeah. And Mary, you know, just to touch on an example of that. So the client that I said is very close to home for, for me in a, in a case, uh, that client started out what I, I I, I would call almost OCD extreme detail and, and some lawyers would gauge that as kind of the pain in the backside client. The reality is I actually learned a lot 15 years later and thousands of divorce leaders.[00:36:43] I learned a lot from somebody that is very close to home to break down. Kind of where my shortcomings are as the lawyer with explanation, like Andrea said. But what I saw in that case was that that client just wants to know that you’re paying attention to these details. And [00:37:00] candidly, I wasn’t always paying attention to all those details ’cause I wanted to jump to, well this is what really matters in this case.[00:37:06] And, and she gave me a few pieces of information that turned out to be very critical in the case that if I would’ve just gone, man, this. Client wants to tell me, you know what her shoe size was in 1985? Who cares, right? If you go there as the lawyer and you don’t think about those details. It’s a big, you can have some really missed over and, and really big oversight in the case where you, you, you create shortcomings in that situation.[00:37:31] The dad had supervised access, still has supervised access. Mom doesn’t want it anymore. Right. And I told her that in the beginning. I was like, you’re gonna get this most likely and you’re not gonna like it. And it’s gonna feel like you’re losing all the way through and you’re gonna stress out about, oh my gosh, is this counselor giving me the best schedule?[00:37:48] Is she really paying attention to me? And I said, you know, you gotta let these experts and these judges and this process play out with their expertise. And in this case, I was like, they will see him just like I did. Okay. Just [00:38:00] like you did, we put him on the stand, he’s gonna be exposed. All that stuff happens, right?[00:38:04] And then when the dust settles, you get past that hearing, it’s like, okay, well now he’s getting another night. Oh my gosh, what’s gonna happen? And every one of those, what you know, a lawyer may consider to be a minor step in the case is actually a major deal. I mean, if you’re going from two hours supervised to an overnight with no supervisor, that’s a very, very big stressor in your life.[00:38:24] But what happened in that case was the, the, now the client wants to go back to the 50 50 basically, and the counselor the therapist, the Amicus, they’re all like, uh, no, we’re not doing that. This guy is a real problem and until he gets out of his own way, we’re not going to, we’re not gonna go there. And so now I could easily say to the client, see, time heals.[00:38:46] Right? Like we told you, just be patient. But if I wouldn’t have dove into those details. I wouldn’t have really listened to the client and really explained those pieces that Andrea talked about. And I don’t always do that, by the way. I’m not always great at that. That’s why I [00:39:00] have teams of people that help me with it.[00:39:02] But if I wouldn’t have done that, in this case, I was about to literally withdraw from that case. I was tired of, you know, just every other day it seemed like something that I needed to be updated with. And then I would update and there’d be 50 questions about it. Well, a, you know, that’s my job. If a client wants that level of, of handholding, it’s my job to.[00:39:20] Tell them, don’t do this if it’s not gonna make progress. But if they’re really struggling, we try to get ’em with counselors and therapists and do all the things and timelines and all that stuff, but sometimes it’s like, we’ve got to get past this point and this is a major point of contention.[00:39:32] And until you get them through that part of the process, it’s not easy for them to release those things. So I just think it’s very important, like Andrea said, you know, don’t, don’t overlook some of those details and, and really go through, go through in detail with the client about what this is gonna look like at each stage.

Mary – [00:39:49] Well, I think that’s a great place to wrap up today, you two. So if you live in Texas and would like to contact the Sisemore Law Firm, you can reach the firm at 817-336-4444. Or visit www.lawyerdfw.com. We also invite you to follow the Podcast and share it with friends who might find it helpful.[00:40:09] Thanks so much for listening and have a great day. 

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