Preventing and Addressing Infidelity (Ep. 30)

Announcer 1 – [00:00:00] Nobody wants to end up in family court, but if you do, you want an honest, experienced family law attorney by your side to help minimize the stress, mental anguish, and legal costs that divorce and custody matters. Bring Welcome to In Your Best Interest. Texas divorce attorney and entrepreneur, Justin Sisemore of the Sisemore Law Firm, entrepreneur, Andrea Jones, freelance writer Mary Maloney, and guests.Share insight on what to expect and how to handle family law matters, the changing landscape of family law and living the entrepreneur’s life now onto the show.

Announcer 2 – Back in 2015, hackers released a treasure trove of user data from Ashley Madison, a website that enables extramarital affairs. Recently Netflix released a three-part documentary on the data leak and the fallout that ensued on today’s episode of In Your Best Interest, the panel will discuss the lingering [00:01:00] impact of the leak and what people should think about if they’re planning to use online sites to cheat or suspect their partner is cheating.

Mary – Thanks for joining us for this installment of In Your Best Interest. I’m Mary Maloney, and today, attorney Justin Sisemore, entrepreneur Andrea Jones and I will discuss the aftermath of the Ashley Madison data breach, which has come to light again with that documentary just coming out. And we wanna talk about the lessons people can learn from that debacle.So Justin, you were practicing law when that all happened, when the data breach occurred, how did the breach affect your practice and then the local community here on DFW.

Justin – Mary, I wanna start by saying this is not an education on going online, on how to cheat on your spouse. So that intro is beautiful, but I, we don’t do that here.Uh, so with respect to Ashley Madison, so I, I probably had. Four to eight, um, at the [00:02:00] most, um, interactions with clients that were either on the site or, you know, we were defending, uh, or, or prosecuting people that were, I say prosecuting. We were going, we were going against somebody that was on the site.So defending, let’s call it three and moving towards divorce for about five. Okay. And, and the, the significance of of, you know, Ashley Madison goes back to, uh, what I believe as a whole, which is, you know, if you do the right thing and. You’re forthcoming with information and you’re honest to your spouse, regardless of if you’re getting a divorce, especially, you know, if you have kids, it’s just imperative because, you know, these things have a way to catch up with you.Right. And, you know, I don’t know how, how hackers decided to do this, but it’s a pretty awesome thing when you think about the moral hackers out there. I mean, when I say awesome, I mean it’s, it’s a. It’s a good [00:03:00] thing. Uh, it’s a big thing. And you just never know if it’s your aunt, your friend that you, you have a bad relationship with who’s gonna rat you out for your shortcomings and your moral compass.Right? And everybody makes mistakes, but what Ashley Madison has done. Um, or has proven is that, you know, that that man upstairs that’s watching down on us, if he wants to blow up the, the door on something that’s, that’s not necessarily the greatest thing in the world. Uh, regardless of what your, your religious beliefs are, it’s gonna get exposed.Some people call it karma. I call it Jesus, whatever you call it is what you call it. But you know, those things have a tendency to catch up with you. And in the world of Ashley Madison, the fear of and living, it’s kinda, it’s kinda like when you, you know, you don’t pay your taxes and you don’t follow your returns, just the angst that you live with of, am I gonna get caught?Is this gonna be a problem? You know, is my wife gonna find out? Is my husband gonna find out that that in and of itself is, [00:04:00] is is punishment. Enough. And I saw that. Firsthand with my clients who were on the site who, you know, may have already answered interrogatories under oath, under the penalty of perjury, that they did not commit an extramarital affair, and then all of a sudden they’ve got hacked.And that the hacking shows not only that they were on the site, they took, they, they. Dug deeper, um, in discovery and found out who they were communicating with, what their numbers were. And all of a sudden that testimony that they’ve given under oath, under the penalty of perjury now has some backup information, which in, in our world, a lot of the businesses he said, she said, so Ashley Madison was actually the, the aha gotcha moment.Right? And if you’re a really crafty attorney, uh, as there are, uh, many of us that you’ll, you’ll do the buildup like that’s kind of. The fun stuff we get to do every once in a while. It’s just like, hey, you know Did, you said here you didn’t commit a adultery, right? Yes. And you stand behind that statement a hundred percent true.[00:05:00] Yes. And you would never lie under oath. No. And you just on and on and you can just see the sweat starting to build on their brow. ’cause they know or they should know you. You got ’em red handed in a situation. When it just keeps lingering. And I, I call that the, Hey, if you’re gonna make my client spend a bunch of money, uh, and you won’t make a deal that’s reasonable, they’re gonna get a show.Right. And that’s the show piece, that Ashley Madison thing was the show piece. You know, that, that we were able to you know, really, really kind Right. Some wrongs too. It’s like, man, you feel like. You’re not a good person because your husband doesn’t, is not affectionate to you and you internalize it.And, all this time the reality was they’re just a turd, right? It’s not you, some people are just turds. And in that situation it really, it was, it was healing to some people to know that like, you know, they weren’t a bad mom or they weren’t bad at business, or they weren’t bad at, you know, being a wife, their spouse was just a freaking [00:06:00] turd.And I know that sounds uneducated and find another word lawyer, but, but that’s just the reality of it. And I think when you get into a situation where, you know, you have websites or social media that enable people to commit, moral wrongs. You’re gonna, you’re gonna have people that take the high road.You are gonna have people take the low road. And for the most part, in our business, people that take the low road, they try to hide assets, they hide affairs. They, you know, they lie, they cheat, they steal they don’t land on their feet. And you know, the FBI tell you, we don’t know when we’re gonna catch you, but there’s a real good chance you’re gonna get caught.And living that life is just, I mean, I just, I think the documentary did a great job of exposing what that looked like for people.

Mary – Yeah, there was some pretty, pretty sad outcomes there in that documentary, for sure. So on the topic of lessons learned, I think one is that blindly trusting a website that, and enables affairs is really not a very good [00:07:00] idea, is it?Yeah. So, okay. So for those listeners who are thinking about cheating on their spouse, what other words of advice can you share?

Justin – Well, I think if you’re going to, you know, first of all, I, I’m not in a position as a human being to judge other people. I may, I may say that, and sometimes I actually do judge them.I try not to, but I do judge them. I think that, um, when you use the word cheating, I think that’s, that’s the, the word that identifies that it ain’t good. I see people that you know, well, we wanna have an, I had a consult yesterday. It’s so funny. Ever these topics come up like it’s, I had this yesterday, but I really did have this consult yesterday where, you know, I, I didn’t even know what this term is, but it’s, it’s called a hot wife.I didn’t even know what that is. And I’m, I’m pretty slick on the streets with words, but husband wanted wife to be a hot wife, and I’m like, well, cool. He just wants you to be beautiful and no, that’s not what it means. It’s an open-ended relationship. Right. And so what I see the most is [00:08:00] people that go into these relationships and they try to convince their spouse that this is normal and they try to get ’em to bend their moral compass so that they adapt to the whatever their own moral discrepancies are, right?And so they talk ’em into it. Their persuasive, they get somebody who wouldn’t do these kind of things to step into this. Fire pit, if you will. And it’s hard to retract back from that. And so. What I see on these sites where people are sharing information they’re, they’re trolling people, they’re DMing them.Is it, it comes back in some way. I mean, I, we’ve talked before on these podcasts, people’s apps are linked to their kids’ site. I, I’ve had, my buddy was driving behind his wife in his car and his, his, you know, in the car, his wife’s talking to somebody she’s having an affair with and it picks up on the Bluetooth like technology is, is dangerously, available and if you start going down rabbit trails, you can do a lot of surveillance. Now, I don’t [00:09:00] ever encourage that, and in fact I discourage it because some of it’s illegal. And much of it can’t be used in a courtroom. I. So I don’t want you going down the surveillance trails, but just from a, Hey, I wanna find out if this is happening.I’ve seen people do crazy stuff. Private investigators are the, the tip of the iceberg for that. Uh, there are apps that are out there that can track, that can hack, that can do things that you and I don’t really wanna know about, but I’ve seen it. And so if you think you’re. This slick person that’s gonna go in and commit what we’re gonna call cheating, because it is cheating.Then just the easy way is don’t do it. If you’ve done it, get away from it. Talk to whoever you need to, counselors, pastors to, to get it out there. Because with Ashley Madison, these things were freaking years. Some of these people were on these things like years ago, right? And they may have had like a fallout with their spouse, but that you can’t put that lightning back in a bottle.And everything follows us on the internet as we know.

Mary – So, and one of the other, um, I guess on the flip side of it, if you’re [00:10:00] somebody, like you talk to prospective clients all the time, they, they think their spouse is cheating. What words of wisdom do you typically share in those scenarios?

Justin – I think the biggest and, and. Probably the biggest piece is if you suspect something based on just an intuition, I think you’ve gotta develop that intuition into a conversation about, Hey, I’m, I’m not really feeling comfortable about our relationship about this. Like, for example, intimacy. A very dear friend of mine beautiful marriage, beautiful kids, uh, long, long marriage.He was actually one of our first buddies to get married. He, a couple years ago, they had a little blip on the radar in their marriage, right? They didn’t, they just weren’t intimate. And he basically went in and said, Hey, this is something that we need to work on, right? And I think when you’re starting to sense those signs don’t let you know, don’t let the the thing become a forest fire.Don’t let that little blaze, uh, that you can put out with a little bit of water, become a forest fire. So have communication about whatever the issue is and be direct about it. Don’t accuse, [00:11:00] just state facts. Be direct. Hey listen, I may be needy here, but you know, I just have noticed, you know, in the last several months we haven’t been intimate.Is there something I can do to help that situation? Should we go on a trip? What do we need to do? Put the onus on you. Don’t go into your spouse and say, Hey, by the way, you know you’re lazy in bed and you suck, and I don’t, you know, really wanna be with you anymore, right? That’s not, that’s not the way to do it.By the same token, if you, if you’re not getting reciprocation and you’re seeing the doors closed for finances, credit cards cell phones, and you passwords change on phones and you don’t have access, it, it, there’s, there’s usually some smoke or where there’s usually some fire where there’s some smoke.And especially when you see transition, like if you’re, if you guys have always had separate bank accounts, um, and you guys have never, you know, shared information, don’t go in there and be like, lemme see your phone and lemme read through everything, uh, just on a whim. But by the same token, if like, the passwords change and you guys have always used joint accounts and all of a sudden, you know, there’s, there’s usually something there.[00:12:00] People say, well, you know, she, she lost 50 pounds and she’s, you know, or he’s in really good health and he is doing pushups and all this stuff, and he’s getting all yoked and there’s, there’s signs, but, but I don’t want people going down this like, oh my gosh, my spouse is cheating because there’s some change and let me go investigate everything and let’s go do the Google search and all that.Because you live in that sheltered environment, it becomes external. And especially if you have kids, you can feel that sense of angst, that sense of worry, that sense of concern. And candidly, it’s smothering and it pushes your spouse further away. Right. I saw that with a very close friend of mine, you know, for a period of time he was trying to do the right thing in after the affair that occurred.But, but for a very brief period of time because of emotion. It was very smothering and it was almost like. Dude, it’s kind of gross. You need to back up a little bit because even though she’s the bad actor, you’re just kinda looking weird here, right? And, and that’s gonna push her away if you really want to heal [00:13:00] this.Um, and I understand the difficulties in doing that, but, but just don’t smother, don’t hover, don’t, don’t be inspector      gadget at every turn. Have good communication but keep your eyes open. I mean, don’t be oblivious to this, especially if you don’t have a job or a career and you, you know, you’re getting into your fifties and sixties, you know, we’re not spring chickens anymore, right?We don’t get to live forever and we certainly can’t work forever. And when you’ve got, you know, limited resources on your side and, you know, not a lot of equity in an estate, it can really. Hit      you hard if they just decide to, to close that door in chapter in your life. So, um, you know, just eyes wide open.

Mary – And Andrea, I know you, you hear from a lot of clients, um, would love your perspective on this as well. What people ask you when they call in and I.

Andrea – Yeah, something has been, when I talk to clients, it feels like you’ve been a counselor. And I’m not a counselor, but I’ve been through a divorce where cheating was involved and it’s, it is heartbreaking.But what Justin said, you gotta [00:14:00] follow your gut, I mean, follow your gut and normally your gut is right. So if you feel something is off or talk to other people and, and find out, or does your husband show you his credit card statements or whatever you have spending money and then all of a sudden all the credit cards are shut down.I mean, there’s normally, like you said, there’s smoke, there’s a fire. Be smart and, and, uh, start getting some information without, without being, becoming, uh, the white, the white light in your face in interrogating and, and trust is the, the trust is the basis of everything. And if you, if the trust is lost, then it’s very hard to gain that back.I mean, I’ve seen this for myself once the trust is broken and I think for advice for those who wanna do it, this might sound good on a whim to do this, but if you break that trust. It can sometimes never been, been, uh, rebuilt and then your marriage is over and that’s it. And then the grass is not greener on the other side.’cause when you think back to the beginning of your marriage, how great it was there, the affair is the beginning, the honeymoon phase of your marriage. So it’s that you can’t compare apples and pears. Sounds exciting, but it normally, and it can, [00:15:00] the, the cost you have kids involved. Think about all that stuff.And I think nowadays people feel they do the Ashley medicine thing and they can’t get divorced because they, they have, don’t have the finances, don’t want to address the, the hard topics and have a conversation and share what they need, share what your needs are in a marriage and, and in a good conversation.And if your needs are not met. I that, that that still doesn’t mean that you need to walk. I mean, there’s work, work on it. Again, the grass is not going on the other side. That’s what a lot of people think. And it’s exciting, but it’s not, is it, is it gonna be exciting with that person five years from now? I doubt it.

Justin – Yeah. That’s a great point. Andrea just brought up. Like, some people get stuck in, in marriage because they’ve got kids that are graduating next year, they don’t wanna disrupt or, um, financially or whatever. You can be unstuck and stuck at the same time. And what I mean by that is regain your sense of self-worth and independence.Establish the boundaries. Don’t, don’t need to, don’t need that gratification from the other individual to, to make you, uh, who you are. I mean, you can be stuck in a divorce when you’re in a divorce. For a [00:16:00] long period of time because of court systems and valuation and all that. So you have to be able to, to, to find that breaking point where you, you can surpass, um, some of the wrongs that your spouse may be doing to you.Right? And you have to find your independence. And that’s one of the things we coach a lot about, um, is, you know, it’s not just, you’re not, you’re not a bad person because your husband. Or wife cheated on you, right? Sometimes people are just, like I said, idiots, right? They do stupid things. And you can forgive idiots for doing stupid things, but you don’t have to, and you don’t have to sit there in a stuck environment.Um, you know, because you’re still married. Um, you can, you can find your independence. You can assert and re find yourself and recenter. Uh, what makes you great? Um, and, and oftentimes that’ll make the other side want to come to you more. And then you realize, hell, I don’t want this person. And so, you know, that’s my, that’s kinda why I say [00:17:00] the Garth Brooks had a So you said, you know, she’s at the foot of that, or he’s at the foot of the mountain.She’s over that hill. There’s a reason for that. Yeah. Right. And, and getting, watching people gain their strength is beautiful.

Andrea – And it hurts. I mean, like, when it happens, it does hurt, but you gotta get through that tunnel. Uh, when I, when my first divorce happened, um, it was like going through this tunnel and there’s light at the other end of the tunnel.You just gotta go through the emotions and the feelings, and that’s why counselors are good for, and there’s a better side on the other side. If you are cheated       on it, you don’t wanna, oh, there’s no way for you to save the marriage. Justin says this all the time, if he can save it, save it. But if there, sometimes there is no way to save it.And then you need to go that path.

Mary – So I think that’s a good kind of transition to my next question here is that, you know, people either need to move on or if they wanna make it work and they, they they have to heal. Um, what’s some words of wisdom you could share there? Justin, I know we’ve talked about this before, um, for blogs that we’ve written and, and you had some great advice.

Justin – I think that, um, [00:18:00] you limit, I tell people write out, write out kind of what in a perfect world if what healing looks like, you know, and then shorten it and then come up with bullet points with kind of a, this is what success looks like, this is how long it’s gonna take for me to, you know. Feel this way, and these are the things that I wanna be transparent about.This is what I wanna make sure, you know, we wanna see, um, you know, if it’s financial, um, I want to, you know, have, have joint access to the accounts. Um, I wanna know that, you know, if you went off tomorrow, you’re not just gonna go bleed out the accounts and cut off my credit cards. Like, you know, people get finance, like literally financially hostage in a marriage.So. I think, um, when you’re dealing with, you know, affairs or cheating, um, or, you know, abuse or any of those things, you gotta be very clear about what your boundaries are. And then the other, the other side of that coin is don’t make that list so exhaustive that the things that really don’t matter, uh, become at the forefront.Uh, you become the boy or girl who cried wolf at that point, and then. [00:19:00] That shuts the other person down. And you may have, they may have accomplished or 90% of what you, what you really want, but that 10% you’re holding on to, um, I, I think that makes it very difficult to have a natural relationship. Um, and so I think defining those, shortening them, I.Accountability. Um, you know, I, my, some of my favorite teachers, judges, lawyers, everything are people that are just direct. They tell you what to expect. Um, they just hit those matrix. They don’t go into the, you know, all the dicta of why this happened or my emotions that are involved in it. Um. You just state facts and like, Hey man, like let’s have a relationship.Let’s put this aside, but here’s, here’s the yeses and nos, here’s the checkpoints, and we gotta do these things, right? If it’s, uh, you’re not having, you’re not going on, you know, work trips, um, and traveling with these people because you cheated on me with. Somebody on your work trip. Well, you gotta respect that boundary, right?Um, and then the [00:20:00] biggest piece too is like when you go into the marriage, if you have this opportunity, when you go into this marriage, really identify what your core values, and I, I do understand they can change, but what your core values. And discuss those. Discuss what it’s gonna look like if you have to travel for work, what finances look like, um, whether you’re both gonna work, whether you’re gonna, you know, how you’re gonna invest.Um, really have those conversations. You may argue a little bit, um, in the beginning of your marriage and certainly, you know, in these conversations before you get married, but that’s okay. When you push through that, my wife’s my, I always joke with her, her mom, like literally like two weeks after we get married, she calls me and says, what’s your social security number?I was like, what? So, you know, some of these conversations are kind of uncomfortable, but she was trying to help us with life insurance and I’m like, why are you. Already asking me about freaking life insurance, were you gonna off me? And I just got married and you know, all this stuff. Reality is she’s trying to help, you know, we all hear the horror stories.Well, 60% of marriages, 50% of marriages end in divorce and [00:21:00] you know, it’s natural to go there. But the reality is the other 50%. A lot of those marriages are beautiful, right? Uh, you are one, you become a familial unit that, um, that enables you to succeed, diversifies your ability to go and do things in business and in life as a mother, as a father, as a business person.Um, so I, I just am a, I’m a, I’m a big proponent of marriage. I think it’s the most beautiful thing God has given us. Uh. I do think that when someone does some certain things in a marriage, you know, adultery for example, I, I don’t know that I could be just like Susie Q or John that forgives for that. I don’t know that I could do that.Um, but also don’t wanna project for people, right? Certain people forgive for all kinds of things, and I’ve been forgiven for all kinds of things. So, you know, I, if that’s something you want to do, let’s, let’s figure out a path to do that. And, and have those conversations and it never [00:22:00] hurts. I love these, these prenup calls that I’m getting now.On the consulting side, a lot of times I’m steering away from prenup. I’m like, look, dude, you don’t have anything. Okay, y’all are building a life together. Why are we gonna go do a five or $10,000 document to go protect nothing? That’s stupid. Right? And sometimes just hearing that from a person that gets paid that money to do that is helpful.Um, but I also help people in consults going into the marriage, like, Hey, you know, usually earlier than the prenup calls, but hey, this is what we’re arguing about. And I don’t just arm them with things from, you know. 12, 13 year marriage that have worked for me and worked for thousands of clients who got back together rehabilitated.We’ve rehabilitated the process, so we’re not just like, I, I feel like we’re pigeonholed as a divorce attorney firm, and I, I’m kind of embarrassed to say that, you know, especially on trips. What do you do for a living? I’m a divorce attorney. Then a wife’s like, Ugh, get away. I, I do think we do a lot of good in helping people navigate through tough situations like that, and so that’s why they call it family law, I guess.

Mary – That’s right. So any [00:23:00] final thoughts today on this topic of Ashley Madison and Extramarital Affairs?

Andrea – And it’s just don’t do it. You risk too much. Like there’s no guarantee that you can save the marriage. Just don’t do it. I mean, fix your marriage first before you think about going someplace else. Like I said earlier, grass is not going on the other side.And is it worth risking a beautiful marriage he might have, or it was beautiful and just went sideways. Life happens. Just don’t do it. Any affair, whether it’s Ashley Anderson or anywhere else, just don’t do it. Fix      your me.

Justin – Think, think about those hackers too, real quick. I just, I like that was the coolest thing about the documentary.I was like, whether you call ’em crusaders or whatever, they didn’t get paid to my knowledge. And it’s like, man, there’s people out there that, that are a nosy. Mm-Hmm. And B, protecting it. I mean it, they’re, if you wanna go down on some rabbit trails, go down some of the divorce court. Judges all there, there, there are all kinds of people out there that have inordinate amount of time.Just if you doubt that, go to your neighborhood associated and board meeting, they will complain about everything under the sun and they all feel like they’re on [00:24:00] this crusade to protect. And so you can’t hide this stuff. I mean, you know, we’ve had it, we’ve all had the experience where you roll up into a restaurant, you see somebody or they, they click the talk button on their phone or whatever.It’s like, I don’t know how you’re gonna get caught, but you’re gonna get caught. And living in that fear is not a way to do it.

Mary – Well, I think that’s a great place to wrap up today. So if you live in Texas listeners and would like to contact the Sisemore Law Firm, you can reach the firm at 8     1     7- 3     3     6-     4     4     4     4 or visit www.lawyer     dfw.com.We also invite you to follow the podcast and share it with friends who might find it helpful. Thanks again for listening. And have a great day.

Announcer 1 – Thank you for listening to In Your Best Interest with Texas Divorce Attorney and entrepreneur Justin Sisemore. The content presented here is provided for information only and should not be construed as legal, tax, or financial advice.Click the follow button to be notified when new episodes become [00:25:00] available.